Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 14

Thread: Basic Alignment settings for a M12

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Posts
    217
    Rep Power
    3

    Default Basic Alignment settings for a M12

    Trying to dial in the suspension on my M12.
    It is a very simple suspension in that you can really only adjust toe.
    So I thought I would start a thread on how, and what the measurements should be for the beginner (I am so a beginner on alignments and how to).
    I suspect this will be a work in progress, so if you see something incorrect, let me know and I will adjust.

    I prefer that my computer / excel to do the math/fractions conversions for me, yep I am lazy, so I have the attached spread sheet to do most of the thinking for me.

    I am using a toe pates to measure toe, (example http://www.longacreracing.com/produc...Magnets+(pair)), so the exact measurement is not as important as the delta between the two measurements.

    For measuring ride height, i fabricated a spring loaded plunder setup out of two pieces of PVC (one that just fits into the other) with a spring, a set screw, and a calibrated measurement scale. Compress the plunger, set it in the appropriate locations (center of the axle on a frame rail) and release the set screw, after it extends, set the set screw. move it out from under the car and read the scale. simple, repeatable.

    attached is my spread sheet, with my first draft numbers.

    I am assuming that the specs in the manual are a good place to start

    Quote Originally Posted by BLACKNOBLEM12GTO3R View Post
    Here was information from Noble manual for anyone interested in knowing:

    Suspension: Double wishbones front and rear with coil over Bilstein shocks. Alloy uprights,

    Power assist rack and pinion steering 1.75 turns lock to lock.

    M12 Cars before car 44 - Wheel Alignment Settings
    Front Camber: -.50 to -1 non-adjustable Front Caster: aprox. +10.5 non-adjustable
    Rear Camber: -.50 to -1 non-adjustable
    Front Toe: out .08” per wheel Total toe .16” out (5/32”)
    Rear Toe: in .12” per wheel Total Toe .24” in (1/4”)

    Steering Rack Height & Position:
    · Rack height set at 4.213”- 107mm. Measured between top of lower chassis tubes and underside of rack body.
    · Rack position set using ‘set-up’ bar between heads of upper and lower wishbone bolts and measuring gap between bar and rack bar/inner end of track rod. Gap set at approximately .197”- 5.00mm.

    Ride Height:

    • Set at coil over shocks from top of shock body to top of spanner nut. Front 1.50”
    • Set at coil over shocks from top of shock body to top of spanner nut. Rear 2”
    • Front height from chassis to ground at wheel centerline 5”
    • Rear height from chassis to ground at wheel centerline 5 ½”


    Tires: Bridgestone Pontenza S-03 standard

    • Front: 225/40x18. Recommended tire pressure 18 psi
    • Rear: 265/35X18. Recommended tire pressure 27 psi


    M 400 and M12 Cars after 44 - Wheel Alignment Settings
    Front Camber: -.50 to -1 non-adjustable Front Caster: aprox. +10.5 non-adjustable
    Rear Camber: -.50 to -1 non-adjustable
    Front Toe: out .04” per wheel Total toe .08 out (5/64”)
    Rear Toe: in .078” to .12 per wheel Total Toe .157” to .24 in (5/32” – ¼”

    Steering Rack Height & Position:
    · Rack height set at 4.213”- 107mm. Measured between top of lower chassis tubes and underside of rack body.
    · Rack position set using ‘set-up’ bar between heads of upper and lower wishbone bolts and measuring gap between bar and rack bar/inner end of track rod. Gap set at approximately 5.00mm. Must be even on both sides.

    Ride Height M400 Only:

    • Set springs from machined edge at the top of the threads to top of spanner nut. Front 1.50”
    • Set springs from the machined edge at the top of the threads to top of spanner nut. Rear 1”
    • Front height from chassis to ground at wheel centerline 5”
    • Rear height from chassis to ground at wheel centerline 5 ½”


    Tires M400 Only: Pirelli P Zero Corsa standard

    • Front: 225/40x18. Recommended tire pressure 20 psi
    • Rear: 265/35X18. Recommended tire pressure 30 psi
    Can we start building a reference database?

    Doug

    updated xls to work with either camber plates or string alignment
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by doug_porsche; 03-13-2016 at 08:08 PM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Posts
    217
    Rep Power
    3

    Default

    Well, I have made good progress!
    Its very good to have a brother with a CNC mill in his garage! (Thanks Randy!)

    Wanted to go too far so I could adjust for a track day, or by adding some sims, I can quickly adjust to street/factory settings.

    The pre-shims (track) set-up produces.

    Left Front Camber -1.83deg................Right Front Camber -1.59deg
    Left Front Toe -0.10deg..................... Right Front Toe -0.10deg, forgot to ask if he could print in inches.

    Left Rear Camber -2.02deg.................Right Rear Camber -1.87deg
    Left Rear Toe +0.32deg..................... Right Rear Toe +0.35deg

    I am now able shim back to hit factory specs, a 20 min job, and I have acceptable tire wear available to me!

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    SugarCreek (Dayton), OH
    Posts
    1,470
    Rep Power
    10

    Default

    the only issue with all this is that you will have to align the car every time you do a shim change

    your front toe needs to be 1 mm positive and rear toe need to be 1mm negative. If you leave it the way it is the rear will over rotate and have you facing the wrong way.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Posts
    217
    Rep Power
    3

    Default

    Gafernandez, thanks for the input!

    Can I get some clarification though?

    When you say
    "front toe needs to be 1 mm positive" you are wanting the front of the front tires further apart than the back of the front tires, correct?

    The measurements I am showing are for toe-in, so... a negative number means the front of the front tires are further apart than the back of the front tires.

    So my -0.10 deg toe-in on both sides means the front of the front tires are further apart than the back of the front tires.

    Yep I get the signs mixed up frequently.

    So, if I am understanding you correctly.... You would like me to reduce the amount of rear toe-in from the factory specs of .078" per wheel down to .04"?

    as per my cheat sheet

    CAUSE: Rear toe-in, too much


    • Rear feels light and unstable on corner entry


    CAUSE: Rear toe-in, too little


    • Power on oversteer, during corner exit





    Last edited by doug_porsche; 11-16-2016 at 10:02 AM.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    1,462
    Rep Power
    11

    Default

    FYI, Troy (Noble specialist) spent much time and money on a race specific Noble trying to dial in the handling to eventually come to the conclusion that the stock settings are the best. I can tell you having my Noble corner weighted made a huge difference.
    Over 3000lbs=boring. 0-60 over 4 seconds=boring. Under 1g=boring. Noble, not boring.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Posts
    217
    Rep Power
    3

    Default

    I trust, but will verify, what Troy is saying.

    The part that frustrates the anal-retentive part of me is....

    Lee... I get it. You, with a very impressive resume, are telling me that: "This is the setup that everything is designed around, don't mess with it!"
    This would be easier to swallow if Lee had said, with actions and words: "This is the setup that everything is designed around. We have built the car to exacting specs. We have verified that this is the setup that each and every car is delivered with. Don't mess with it!"

    I would bet a soda that: If you asked Mr Noble, in the pits at Le Mans directly before the race, if he thought the alignment specs my car (as delivered) were optimal... He would've passed-out from lack of oxygen from laughing too hard.

    I now have a setup that is adjustable. I can setup the car to match Lee's specs, the aggressive side of Lee's specs.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    1,462
    Rep Power
    11

    Default

    Good point about the LeMans set-up, our cars don't seem to have aggressive camber as it is a road car. Just for fun, this video is a race prepaired Noble driven by Derek Whitis and set up by Troy. Watch the crazy pass between two cars on the back stretch at VIR.

    https://youtu.be/Ou4PqTkAPaw
    Over 3000lbs=boring. 0-60 over 4 seconds=boring. Under 1g=boring. Noble, not boring.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    Denver, CO
    Posts
    120
    Rep Power
    2

    Default

    Regarding Dougs original post displaying the alignment settings: It shows settings for cars *before* chassis 44, and cars *after* 44.

    Soo....What about car #44...??? Anyone?

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    395
    Rep Power
    6

    Default

    I'll scan my settings that 3R Auto did for my alignment. The original owner did have some custom work done that allows shims to be used to get more negative camber (I think.)

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Posts
    217
    Rep Power
    3

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ken7258 View Post
    I'll scan my settings that 3R Auto did for my alignment. The original owner did have some custom work done that allows shims to be used to get more negative camber (I think.)

    And??
    Waiting for the scan?
    Do you like the alignment? (translated, is it work stealing, hmmm, I mean copying, hmmm, referencing)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •