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Thread: How much power could a Noble make, if a Noble could make power?

  1. #1
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    Default How much power could a Noble make, if a Noble could make power?

    Short and simple it depends on how much air and fuel - i think - wait - I'm confused. Where do we stop. These dyno graphs do not represent peak power, they represent clean smooth power. We can't make peak power graphs due to wheel spin, so these graphs are with Michelin PS2's on the rear to help it stick and a -5 degree timing adjustment across the board to help cylinder pressures since we don't ice the intercooler, just ambient air. All runs in sixth gear. No engine failures to date. No gear box failures to date (modified slightly, 2 in stock) all runs in sixth gear ( the one closest to 1:1)

    1st one is good horsepower with wheel slip
    2nd one is good torque- all with power to red line at 7400rpms
    -Troy Fralick
    troy@nobleupgrades.com
    Tallahassee Speed Shop, Inc.
    5338 Gateway Drive
    Tallahassee, Fl 32303
    850-597-8919
    904-838-9150 cell
    And
    Remade by Hand, Inc.
    Porsche Restorations
    173 McCallister Rd
    Crawfordville, FL 32327

  2. #2

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    Geez! That's simply awesome. Congrats on hitting those numbers, especially with those curves.

    Is that boost read in bar?
    RacePrecision GotApex

    "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity." ~ Horace Mann

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    Holy Crap!

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    Quote Originally Posted by OnyxM400 View Post

    Is that boost read in bar?
    Yes


    approx. 25.67 psi
    Last edited by A.J.Smith; 04-04-2007 at 07:21 PM.

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    Impressive work.

    If you could get more rubber on the back of that thing nothing could touch it on the track.
    Dino

    Sarthe Grey Rossion Q1 (Sold to a good home in Colorado)
    Wolf GB08 LMP3/CN Sports Prototype www.motorsports-sw.com www.wolfracingcars.com
    Red 2006 A4 (slow but good gas mileage)
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    If Noble were to name the car with that engine it would be the M690!!

  7. Default

    Troy

    I'm impressed with the curves, which look very driveable, and also cheered-up with your gearbox comments.

    I'm going to visit Plans this afternoon so should see my recently broken gearbox - I'll maybe get a picture of it (5th gear is smashed to bits apparantly). The replacement has been modified by CTS and should be in place in the next couple of days along with a stronger clutch so I'll have the option of more torque.

    To be frank I'm not sure if I want to wind up the power any further until I'm more sure about longevity and reliability but I guess that may be superceded depending on my driving abilities (or lack of).
    --
    Richard

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by NobleTech View Post
    Short and simple it depends on how much air and fuel - i think - wait - I'm confused. Where do we stop. These dyno graphs do not represent peak power, they represent clean smooth power. We can't make peak power graphs due to wheel spin, so these graphs are with Michelin PS2's on the rear to help it stick and a -5 degree timing adjustment across the board to help cylinder pressures since we don't ice the intercooler, just ambient air. All runs in sixth gear. No engine failures to date. No gear box failures to date (modified slightly, 2 in stock) all runs in sixth gear ( the one closest to 1:1)

    1st one is good horsepower with wheel slip
    2nd one is good torque- all with power to red line at 7400rpms
    Just in case somebody gets pissed off, I was not the guy who brought this up first.

    Correction factor for using 6th gear with the split final drive ratios? Your power might be overstated by 20-30%. Man, that's perhaps WAY over 126 HP. Don't you mean 4th gear? 5 and 6 have a different final drive. 4th uses 3.4:1, 5-6 use 2.8:1. That's like, what? 27% overdrive is my EWAG. That's 10 mph in just road speed for every 1000 RPM.

    In reality, that "closest to 1:1" is really closer to .77:1. The error could be even greater.

    The fact that 6th gear survived, and you have not blown up any gearboxes is reason enough to wonder about the power.

    Not wanting to flame your work, but there are huge margins of error from those dynos, and the chance of operator error is great. Rear axle ratio, temperature... At the 650 HP leve, the Dynojet itself can be putting out a 110 HP error on its own. Fudge the correction for temperature, and you can get another 50 or so.

    I have no doubt that the car is fast and powerful. How about a quarter mile run to check the physics of your HP. Your trap speed should approach 152 mph or faster, maybe 155+. This would be a quick and easy confirmation of the power. We are talking about perhaps 720 HP at the clutch by the dyno estimate. To hit 150 takes about 671 HP at the clutch.

    Have you changed cams? Cam timing? Compression ratio? Is this just all boost and map?

    The plots look pretty good, so it appears that you have smoothly delivered, useful power.

    As for the rest, I have no doubt that it makes fantastic power. I just wonder about those stated numbers as applied to a set of tires on pavement, accelerating over a distance to a terminal speed. Racing on the road is sure different than racing a dyno.

    Time to test the physics. Feel free to ice the cooler.
    Last edited by S.J.Morgan; 04-05-2007 at 09:14 AM.

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    Unhappy

    not real sure about all this, my experience on dynos is that you dyno in the 4th or 5th gear which ever one is closest to 1:1 through the tranny, the gear ratio for sixth gear is 1.03:1 - therefore this is the gear I dyno in, two reasons we get wheel spin in lower gears and that skews the reasons and in lower gears the torque numbers grow while the horsepower numbers remain about the same. therefore the numbers that you see are the lowest numbers of the gear selections available. yes I realize 5th and sixth gears are the weakest. I've built transmission of several varieties over the years. most have failures of the overdrive gears. can you explain why the getrag has two different final drive ratios. I thought the differential determined that number.
    what gear should I dyno in. Dyno Jet is adressing wheel spin issues now. dyno dynamics, mustang dynos and well alll the dynos we go to we get wheel spin - street tires or slicks, are car is 2400 lbs with a rear weight of 58%.
    no matter what gear were in, at 5200 rpm's it brakes loose, so I tuned the power out at 5200 rpms to make it more tuneable on the dyno and more driveable on the street.
    all in all - sixth gear is the only gear I can use to get clean full throttle runs, my gear box design is still waiting for scrutiny. but at this point, I don't think there's any reason to go to anything else. I have two spares because I'm waiting for a failure. then I'll disassemble it and go from there.
    anybody else want to try to blow one up, I'll install it,the cooler and the pumps when we get back in may.
    how harmful are quarter mile runs to our style gearboxes, can I just get some data of are speed from one speed to the next speed at full throttle in x amount of time and we can figure out the physics from there, I have miles of data in MoTeC, for example , miller motor sports park from 84.3 kph to 252.9 kph in 16.7 seconds. how many btu's does it take to do that with Derek in the car @ 2590 lbs, with first four seconds of that being gradual throttle increase.
    now I'm going back into the shop to pout about my grammar and typing abilities. I wish I could be like everybody else.
    -Troy Fralick
    troy@nobleupgrades.com
    Tallahassee Speed Shop, Inc.
    5338 Gateway Drive
    Tallahassee, Fl 32303
    850-597-8919
    904-838-9150 cell
    And
    Remade by Hand, Inc.
    Porsche Restorations
    173 McCallister Rd
    Crawfordville, FL 32327

  10. Default

    There is no "differential" outside of the transmission itself. The final drive provides that function. Although numerically 1.03 is "closest" to 1:1. If you normalize it to the 1-4 gear final ratio it is .74:1 overdrive. 5th gear normalized is about .93:1 and actually the closest 1:1.

    The initial gears alone do not tell the tale (ie 4 - 1.19 5- 1.31 without figuring in the final drive is gearing the wrong way - you'd have to shift 1,2,3,5,4,6)
    -- Mike
    04 Noble M12 GTO-3R (Robb and Hoover)
    http://www.turbohoses.com/Nobleperformance.htm
    97 3000GT VR-4
    00 Dakota Sport

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