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Thread: Best way to control boost (ECU or Manual control)

  1. #1
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    Default Best way to control boost (ECU or Manual control)

    I have seen some discussion on ECU development as it relates to boost control and think a new discussion on this subject would be great.

    This could help people draw conclusions on all cars not just Noble vs. Rossion. Does a person want a car where boost is controlled via the ECU or manually controlled?

    What pluses and minus for each. Lets try and stay away from discussing or comparing cars (Noble/Rossion) people can draw their own conclusions after an open discussion which is better

    A) Having a car control boost with an ECU
    B) Having a car control boost with a manual boost control
    MVG - M12

  2. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by m54321 View Post
    I have seen some discussion on ECU development as it relates to boost control and think a new discussion on this subject would be great.

    This could help people draw conclusions on all cars not just Noble vs. Rossion. Does a person want a car where boost is controlled via the ECU or manually controlled?

    What pluses and minus for each. Lets try and stay away from discussing or comparing cars (Noble/Rossion) people can draw their own conclusions after an open discussion which is better

    A) Having a car control boost with an ECU
    B) Having a car control boost with a manual boost control
    MVG - M12
    I also am very interested in thoughts on this. Because of inability to solve my problem with pulsing and decreasing boost, the kid at the shop I went to suggested an electronic, on-dash boost controller.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrDaKine View Post
    I also am very interested in thoughts on this. Because of inability to solve my problem with pulsing and decreasing boost, the kid at the shop I went to suggested an electronic, on-dash boost controller.
    Ron,

    If you still have the 400 map, you may be experiencing spiking boost because of the mapping. That was a common issue with that map. A manual boost controller will act as a band-aid for you and hold boost at a set level, since the ECU and factory boost control isn't worling together properly. I think Brav took this approach on his car for the same reason. The best way to go is with an ECU controlled system. The next best way is with a separate electronic boost controller that is programmable and more accurate than a manual boost controller. Last choice is a manual controller.

    As we have discussed before, I opted to get rid of the 400 map on mine and had the ECU remapped so that the factory supplied ECU-monitored boost controller could still be used. The problem I have with a manual boost controller is that it can be messed up too easily. If you dial in more boost than the ECU is mapped to handle, you can cause real problems. I'm certainly no expert, but I always try to err on the safe side of things when it comes to boost.

    Perhaps one of the professional tuners like Ricky or Troy can shed more light on the subject for you.

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    I had a hypo map with the spiking issues. After the remap everything is smooth and controlled.
    Dino

    Sarthe Grey Rossion Q1 (Sold to a good home in Colorado)
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  5. #5

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    I had the M400 map. It's been in the car for over 20K miles. Never had any spiking issues. It still doesn't

    I know of at least another 100 cars that are also trouble free. They work fine.

    EEC controlled boost is a great idea, especially if it is attached to a knock or octane sensor, traction control or allows for quick overboost for an additional burst of power.

    The Noble doesn't have any of those features, but it does have ECU controlled boost. Some cars do have boost spiking problems. I think that it's mechanical, or a problem in the plumbing of the vacuum system, and not necessarily a map problem. I have been told by some owners that a new map fixes the boost, but leaves pinging, and the inability to idle with the A/C running in hot weather. I am not sure that this is a "fix".

    I do know that if one has a properly set up M400, the M400 map works fine.

    So, who do you believe?

    I have driven many M400s that don't have any problems at all with the programming. It's experience over an awful lot of enjoyable miles. Also, magazine editors had their way with the car, and had no complaints, only complements.

    With this in mind, My first step would be to go through the system and make sure that everything is mechanically correct. Then, install the last series M400 programing. It's about 3 years old, and works just fine. Quick throttle response smooth idle, even with the A/C on. It works in hot weather.

    Which controller is best?

    As far as being "more accurate" than a standard metered orifice, understand all that the ECU controller does is meter air to adjust boost pressure. Nothing special, especially if no other input is available to vary boost pressure. An ECU controller can vary boost over a wide range by throttling the air, while the manually set one just has a fixed orifice.

    Can you tell the difference? 'Bet you can't. In fact, nobody really thinks about boost controllers unless they go wrong. Like spiking...

    Sure, manual controller it can be messed with, but so can the ECU controllers when the program is changed. Back to spiking again.

    Rule of thumb is to stick with the system that the car came with unless you want to manually control boost. This has it's perils.

    DrDaKine: A manually controlled, ELECTRONIC boost controller, with a dash knob, IS A MAUNUAL BOOST CONTROLLER. YOU DON'T WANT TO DO THAT UNTIL YOU HAVE YOUR MAP AND CURRENT SYSTEM STRAIGHTENED OUT. IN FACT, YOU PROBABLY DON'T WANT TO HAVE MANUAL BOOST AT ALL. The difference between a manual boost controller, and the electronic one is the stepper motor that turns the valve back in the engine compartment in response to the knob on the dash. Advantage? No tubes to pass forward, then back to the engine. Disadvantage? You can easily adjust it when you are driving, and your current ECU can't take much more boost than you already have.

    Boost control and the ECU...

    There is a big difference between the way that the speed density/TPS systems work as opposed to the Ford EECV Mass Air system.

    Where the old MBE doesn't have much latitude beyond what it was programmed for (change the exhaust, and you remap, as an example), the Mass Air systems can take quite a bit of change, and compensate for it (self tune) very successfully.

    I once increased the HP of one of my NA engines by over 150 HP without changing the Ford ECU at all. I changed injectors, fuel pump, fuel pressure, cam, headers, compression, heads, but not the ECU. The standard program was perfect, and returned plenty of additional HP without running out of headroom. All I did was to improve the fuel delivery parts, and the air delivery parts. The ECU figured out the combination within 5 minutes, and made huge power on the engine dyno.

    A little knowledge is dangerous. Consult with Mike E at Dynamic, Craig at 1G/Rossion or your tuner. E mail me as a last resort. Weigh the information carefully.


    The Rossion EECV and the Noble's MBE are two entirely different ECUs. They control the engine in different ways. Tying the Rossion to Noble problems of the past is like blaming the Iraq war on George Washington.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by m54321 View Post
    I have seen some discussion on ECU development as it relates to boost control and think a new discussion on this subject would be great.

    This could help people draw conclusions on all cars not just Noble vs. Rossion. Does a person want a car where boost is controlled via the ECU or manually controlled?

    What pluses and minus for each. Lets try and stay away from discussing or comparing cars (Noble/Rossion) people can draw their own conclusions after an open discussion which is better

    A) Having a car control boost with an ECU
    B) Having a car control boost with a manual boost control
    MVG - M12
    If we are talking "all cars", ECU controlled boost has a lot of advantages, especially if it is tied to knock sensors, and traction control.

    If you can automatically control boost to come in, and built until just the point of pre ignition, you have max tolerable boost available at all times. Your variable? The fuel, and the ambient air temp/induction temp.

    Also, if you have a traction problem, the traction control can dial back the boost a little, making the car more controllable.

    The manual system can't do any of that. It's just a fixed orifice. If you make it accessible, you can manually dial up or drop boost, but that's difficult to do accurately. You can test, then leave the thing alone, pin it and make it tamperproof. That works.

    In practice, you may not notice any difference between automatic and fixed controllers when driving, unless the ECU has lots of capability.

    Here is where it gets interesting. The Rossion has lots of capabilities in its ECU, including the ability to integrate the information from knock sensors, as is the standard for modern production cars. The Noble has very little in the way of bells and whistles, other than to drive the boost controllers with respect to fuel and a boost map. No external information, such as knock sensors is used.
    Last edited by S.J.Morgan; 02-23-2009 at 05:45 PM.

  7. Default

    Jan,

    M400 map is not the 400 hypo map that was referenced. The hypo is the "400hp" map that 1G sold as an upgrade and/or fix for the 3R issues. The 3Rs DID have issues with the early maps.

    Your implication is that there are no issues with the Noble maps and that everyone has an M400... You are wrong. Period. Please get over it and let the people on the board assist others that may be having issues we have lived through.
    Last edited by Mike Muenter; 02-23-2009 at 06:09 PM.
    -- Mike
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    For anyone not familiar with the differences between an M12 and an M400 that may now be somewhat confused, the "400" map, or as it is sometimes also referred to as the "hypo" map was used in the 3R, not the M400. The 400/hypo mapping was funky and was prone to spiking and other issues. It was basically an attempt to use the M400 mapping in the 3R to give the 3R more power. As those of us with this map came to find out, it didn't work well. The cars have different turbos and the mapping is not interchangeable for that reason. 1g Racing never made any attempt to fix it. They weren't selling M12's anymore, so they focused on tweaking the M400 mapping for the M400 instead.

    Ron,

    As dino and I and many others with the 400/hypo mapping have found out, if you get rid of the 400/hypo map and get your ECU properly remapped at the same time that you get rid of the Greg Robb y-pipe exhaust on your car, you will solve your problems while adding another 120+ rwhp. Retain the ECU controlled boost controller that came with the car. A manual boost controller is not the way to go. That will just be putting a band-aid on the symptom and you will not be treating the cause.

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    Any of the "tuners" on this forum can easily download the calibration from your ecu and tell you exactly which map you have.
    Throughout the years, we have found several iterations of the "m400" map, a few versions of the "m12" map and of course the "hypo map", which was designed for the M12. Also, there were a few M12's that had the earlier version of the MBE, which have a few advantages over the M400 MBE computer.

    Ecu's with intergrated boost control is the choice of most tuners.
    Straight spring from external wastegates respond the fastest.
    Manual boost controllers can be
    detrimental if used carelessly, just be sure the calibration can compensate. Visit your local dyno during the adjustment.

    The latest version of the M400 map works quite well. We have found one very late m400 that had the older map for some reason, so it's a good idea to double check if you are not sure.
    Factory Noble Software
    Noble M400 SCCA GT-1 Podium 2014

    www.Noble-Speed.com

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    Noble, Rossion and Lotus Performance
    http://www.turbohoses.com/Nobleperformance.htm

    Hooverc@TurboHoses.com
    925-455-1066
    Livermore CA.

    www.OriginSportsCars.com
    HVR & Origin N

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    Thanks, Hoover. I know you and Ricky have seen it all by now and know precisely where the problems are or aren't in each factory map iteration.

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