Grapeman's Noble Racing

[Hoover]

How about attacking it from several angles?
1. Fastback mod. to improve airflow over the IC
2. IC spray bar with fine mist of CO2 or Nitrous
3. IC piping injection with water/methanol

we may have to.

the fast back mod. is a good no maintenance upgrade.
we're trying to keep things as simple as possible.

[Hoover]

At sea level and standard atmospheric pressure. It was lower at Willow Springs, probably by 5 degrees F or so if the barometer reading was typical. You do record weather conditions, right?

Jeff

if we were in a longer session, it might contribute.

[Hoover]

Thank you, Paul!!!!

He provided me with all the hard data from the wind tunnel to aid us with fastback design. I believe "most" of the information was published in Race Car Engineering, but this is more comprehensive.

With this in hand (and we can jerry- rig a fastback for now), it opens up many options as far as tuning, boost levels, power etc.....ultimately, we will do what's best for the motor health and not concern ourselves with extracting every ounce of hp.

[scl]

I haven't chimed in yet but have been following from the beginning. WOW. This thread has it all! Hoover and team TH have displayed unbelievable dedication to the project, and Grapeman's racing exploits thus far are incredibly impressive! I can't wait to see what kind of development trickle-down comes out of the quest to abolish heatsoak and improve cooling, and it is terrific to have Paul C and everyone with competitive experience contributing to the development as well. Great job all around, gents!

-Stew

[Hoover]

I haven't chimed in yet but have been following from the beginning. WOW. This thread has it all! Hoover and team TH have displayed unbelievable dedication to the project, and Grapeman's racing exploits thus far are incredibly impressive! I can't wait to see what kind of development trickle-down comes out of the quest to abolish heatsoak and improve cooling, and it is terrific to have Paul C and everyone with competitive experience contributing to the development as well. Great job all around, gents!

-Stew

Thanks, Stew!

I agree, working with people that have competitive experience is key and Paul has some real life experience with the "noble". Some of our other specifications came from working with the engineer of the Nissan GTP-ZX race car. There was no way we could match their specifications and/or budget, but it was ok, we weren't running 24 hours. Since they weren't racing that car anymore, he gladly shared their support specifications to the engine.
Some of the parts we have today are much better than "back in the day", so we had quite a bit of a head start.

[Jimbo]

That makes sense, since I think the temp gauge is controlled through the ECU? I had even heard a rumor on PH that the ECU won't show the actual temperature on the gauge, if it goes above a predetermined amount. Any truth to that rumor, Hoover?

As Hoover already confirmed, the rumor is true. The ECU controls the water temp gauge, telling the gauge what to indicate throughout the entire range of the gauge. It seems that the low temp end is set to move the needle more than actual, the middle is a large dead spot where the needle moves very little for changes in temperature, and then just maxes when the water temp gets outside the "normal" range.

Actually, this is no different than the coolant temp gauges in many normal production vehicles. On a cold start, drivers watch the gauge, waiting for the car to show some heat, so they can turn on the heater, start driving, etc. So, the manufacturer makes the needle move more than the actual change in temp, so it starts to move earlier and looks like it's warming up faster. When the engine is up to temp, the manufacturer deadens the needle response, so the driver doesn't see and worry about every twitch of the needle - in effect, they're hiding the fact that the engine temp normally fluctuates within a range of temps. If the engine starts to get to the top end of the normal range, they move the needle more, so it's easier to spot when trouble is starting. Basically, what you end up with is a three-stage idiot light....

[falb]

More chatter from the peanut gallery.

I have been using amsoil with good success and lower temps. I usually don't think much of any oil but this stuff seems to work well and keeps the oil temps low. http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/rd30.aspx

[Pinnacle]

Very interesting, indeed. Hoover / Robert / Paul et al', I would like to ask a question please. Are you using a stock radiator up front for the engine coolant ? If not, then ok, I'll shut up, but if so consider ...........

When I did the bulk of my upgrades, which I helped direct with a local speed shop, I did chatter with Troy quite a bit privately, and of course pulled on Derek's heavy track experience with his Green Machine. One thing I did, and have not had a issue since as relates to radiator temps, was have a custom, dual pass radiator made and more or less "floated mounted" it up front. In reality, the radiator is about 1" thicker, same width and height, plus we had them install a drain cock, which of course the factory never did on theirs.

As far as the mount, the factory units have had a history of getting hair line cracks where the tubes connect to the tank and due get heat soaked, and especially so on guys cars that tracked. Why ? Everything was hard mounted, becoming part of the chassis, so even though the chassis is rigid, it still flexes some which gets translated through the hard mounted radiator, and way la ! stress cracks and piss hole leaks over time which are hard to find but due bleed off pressure. SO, when we installed the custom dual pass tank, we installed essentially a U shaped channel on either side with thick rubber along the bottom edge for shock absorbtion. Simply slide the radiator down the channel on both sides, it sits on the rubber, and then two retaining brackets on top to keep it from going any where. Same location, soft mounted, dual pass efficiency, absolutely NO water heat issues even on high ambient days.

I do still get heat soak on occassion during mid summer ( 95 F+ ) when pushing the car due to the intercooler air flow, or lack there of, but I have never had a water temp issue since.

If you haven't done anything like that, I'd be giving it a thought with the HP Robert is running. Look forward to your progress, and thank you both again for sharing your work openly. It not only helps others, but gets even more people involved generating excitement for the brand while striving for the best solutions !

[Zezinho]

Fully agree Pinnacle, a significant upgrade to both radiator and intercooler is warranted for this kind of power. And, as you say, some mechanism to allow a little flex is really important especially with the stress on the chassis of a race set-up. If I'm not mistaken, when Derek dialed in his custom suspension, put on slicks, and then did all his aero work, the chassis did feel more stress and things like direct-mounted radiators got a little twisted...

[Hoover]

Very interesting, indeed. Hoover / Robert / Paul et al', I would like to ask a question please. Are you using a stock radiator up front for the engine coolant ? If not, then ok, I'll shut up, but if so consider ...........

When I did the bulk of my upgrades, which I helped direct with a local speed shop, I did chatter with Troy quite a bit privately, and of course pulled on Derek's heavy track experience with his Green Machine. One thing I did, and have not had a issue since as relates to radiator temps, was have a custom, dual pass radiator made and more or less "floated mounted" it up front. In reality, the radiator is about 1" thicker, same width and height, plus we had them install a drain cock, which of course the factory never did on theirs.

As far as the mount, the factory units have had a history of getting hair line cracks where the tubes connect to the tank and due get heat soaked, and especially so on guys cars that tracked. Why ? Everything was hard mounted, becoming part of the chassis, so even though the chassis is rigid, it still flexes some which gets translated through the hard mounted radiator, and way la ! stress cracks and piss hole leaks over time which are hard to find but due bleed off pressure. SO, when we installed the custom dual pass tank, we installed essentially a U shaped channel on either side with thick rubber along the bottom edge for shock absorbtion. Simply slide the radiator down the channel on both sides, it sits on the rubber, and then two retaining brackets on top to keep it from going any where. Same location, soft mounted, dual pass efficiency, absolutely NO water heat issues even on high ambient days.

I do still get heat soak on occassion during mid summer ( 95 F+ ) when pushing the car due to the intercooler air flow, or lack there of, but I have never had a water temp issue since.

If you haven't done anything like that, I'd be giving it a thought with the HP Robert is running. Look forward to your progress, and thank you both again for sharing your work openly. It not only helps others, but gets even more people involved generating excitement for the brand while striving for the best solutions !

Robert already has the radiator upgrades.
Most don't know what their coolant temps. really are. As Jimbo says, the computer only tells you when it's warming up or TOO HOT, nothing in between and absolutely no warning. When someone looks at their coolant temp. gauge and sees it moving around, they automatically panic, thinking something is wrong.

Fully agree Pinnacle, a significant upgrade to both radiator and intercooler is warranted for this kind of power. And, as you say, some mechanism to allow a little flex is really important especially with the stress on the chassis of a race set-up. If I'm not mistaken, when Derek dialed in his custom suspension, put on slicks, and then did all his aero work, the chassis did feel more stress and things like direct-mounted radiators got a little twisted...

With the stiffer springs and suspension and track enviroment, everything is taking a beating. we've have to maintain any welded assemblies in the exhaust, downpipes and even check control arms, uprights during track prep.