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Thread: stalling after hot

  1. #11

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    The tune I got with my Turbohoses single turbo kit did exactly the same thing. It should be easy to correct by changing a few cells in the tune.

    Jeff
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    Jeff
    Noble parts for sale, see my Noble website: http://Noblecars.org

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by NobleM400 View Post
    The tune I got with my Turbohoses single turbo kit did exactly the same thing. It should be easy to correct by changing a few cells in the tune.

    Jeff
    You never got a tune from TH, Jeff. All you got was something that would allow your car to start, because you didn't want to pay for the actual tune for the single turbo setup. Please stop trying to mislead people that TH gave you something that was less than you asked for.

  3. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by caccobra View Post
    You never got a tune from TH, Jeff. All you got was something that would allow your car to start, because you didn't want to pay for the actual tune for the single turbo setup. Please stop trying to mislead people that TH gave you something that was less than you asked for.
    You are quite mistaken, Mr. Cac. I paid $10,000 for a "complete" single turbo conversion kit that included larger injectors. Hoover agreed that the price of the kit should include a tune since, obviously, the original Trevor tune for 42 lb/hr injectors would not work with the 75 lb/hr injectors included with the kit. Selling a $10,000 kit with 75 lb/hr injectors and not providing a reasonable tune to run them would be a bad business practice, don't you think? "OH, you wanted your car to run well? That'll cost a bit more."

    I don't think my kit was TH's first single turbo conversion on an otherwise stock motor, so presumably they had a handle on a solid baseline tune for that configuration. I was surprised by how far off the tune was given that my car must be like many others that were built by the shop. I asked Hoover to fix it, but he wanted a kilobuck (or was it $1500?) for a dyno tune. I said that a solid baseline tune should be part of a $10,000 single turbo kit, as it was for the two Corvette blower kits and one 996 Turbo conversion I've done in the past. The Porsche guy is noteworthy because he called one day to say that he had just finished dialing in my tune file on a car identical to mine.

    Since Hoover wasn't going to make the tune right, I began teaching myself the nuances of Easimap and the MBE so that I could at least get rid of the afterstart stalling and bring my idle AFR down from 16:1. As I dug into the various maps, I was surprised by many aspects of the TH tune. For example, the secondary fuel and spark maps were both zero'd out.

    I have more to write, but I'll wait until Mr. Cac pokes me again. He hasn't caught on that I provide more detail only in response to his pokes.

    Jeff
    -------------------------
    Jeff
    Noble parts for sale, see my Noble website: http://Noblecars.org

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    Jeff, you didn't want the injectors due to owning an injector business, as we discussed, you probably have better resources, being in the business. We discounted it and still PROVIDED them to you, and you would return them when you switched them. That was more than 2 years ago. You also wanted to tune your own car, install your kit over the weekend and possibly start/drive it, but only had the stock ecu map. I provided you a starter map (I think a loaner ecu as well) so that you could at minimum start the engine and drive it. We can only optimize an engine on a dyno, a bit of steet/track driving and morning cold starts. You have a base map only.

    I think that three of our turbo kits are the same in all the years we've made them. Each person has a preference and we build to their requests., while offering advice on what we've experienced in the past with the different configurations.

    Since we are the only ones that have actual racing data, that information is priceless and helps us improve daily. Inspecting the engines after that amount of time, tells us that we are on the right track.


    Hope this sheads some light.
    Thanks.
    Last edited by Hoover; 02-11-2012 at 12:46 AM.
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  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoover View Post
    Jeff, you didn't want the injectors due to owning an injector business, as we discussed, you probably have better resources, being in the business. We discounted it and still PROVIDED them to you, and you would return them when you switched them. That was more than 2 years ago. You also wanted to tune your own car, install your kit over the weekend and possibly start/drive it, but only had the stock ecu map. I provided you a starter map (I think a loaner ecu as well) so that you could at minimum start the engine and drive it. We can only optimize an engine on a dyno, a bit of steet/track driving and morning cold starts. You have a base map only.

    I think that three of our turbo kits are the same in all the years we've made them. Each person has a preference and we build to their requests., while offering advice on what we've experienced in the past with the different configurations.

    Since we are the only ones that have actual racing data, that information is priceless and helps us improve daily. Inspecting the engines after that amount of time, tells us that we are on the right track.


    Hope this sheads some light.
    Thanks.

    Iīm wondering if everybody might be a little bit right here. Several years ago (2006-2007?) I participated in two Noble days, one at VIR and one at Autobahn (which I hosted), and there were Hoover tunes/exhausts in cars at both events, which were still overheating, albeit better than stock. Is it possible that there has been ongoing learning over the years, and that there is no such thing as a single "Hoover tune" but rather that the type of "Hoover tune" is dependent on when it was purchased? So, you could have both a tune that does overheat and another that does not overheat, both from Hoover?

    And one small correction: Derek/Troy did also have a fair amount of race data, blew something like 8-9 engines, detailed post-race inspections, etc etc etc, as they developed that monster 630 whp/run-all-day engine of theirs. And thatīs with Mr. Whitis driving who ainīt exactly gentle on the equipment.... So there is at least one other tuner out there -- Troy -- who has race data in their engine development. Seth might also beg to differ on this point, but Iīm not certain if he has race data or just track data. Truthfully, not sure why the engine cares whether the driver was racing or tracking.... Maybe that in racing you might end up with significant time in a draft or on somebodyīs ass through a series of corners and get dirty air to the engine, for example?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zezinho View Post

    And one small correction: Derek/Troy did also have a fair amount of race data, blew something like 8-9 engines, detailed post-race inspections, etc etc etc, as they developed that monster 630 whp/run-all-day engine of theirs. And thatīs with Mr. Whitis driving who ainīt exactly gentle on the equipment.... So there is at least one other tuner out there -- Troy -- who has race data in?
    I'm just curious. I've been a loyal Forum nut since I think 2007. That's 5 years. I don't remember hearing when or where Derek raced his Noble. His many accomplishments in other cars are well documented here, and since I love to know all things racing (especially in Nobles!), please share. What year(s)? With what racing organization? How'd he do? And most importantly, any video? . His driving skills are top notch, and I'd love to see them in a Noble. The only one I remember was a painful crash sequence where, I think, he broke his finger. And i couldn't tell if that video was in a race or a practice day. You got anything in the archives?

    Also, whatever happened to his car?
    Robert

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeman View Post
    I'm just curious. I've been a loyal Forum nut since I think 2007. That's 5 years. I don't remember hearing when or where Derek raced his Noble. His many accomplishments in other cars are well documented here, and since I love to know all things racing (especially in Nobles!), please share. What year(s)? With what racing organization? How'd he do? And most importantly, any video? . His driving skills are top notch, and I'd love to see them in a Noble. The only one I remember was a painful crash sequence where, I think, he broke his finger. And i couldn't tell if that video was in a race or a practice day. You got anything in the archives?

    Also, whatever happened to his car?
    Still my favorite video. Your comment is #4.
    http://www.nobleforums.com/showthread.php?t=8764
    Gregg A. Imel

  8. #18
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    I now remember that one, thanks Gregg! There's also a short clip where someone takes him out and he hurts his finger pretty badly. And that puts his racing of the car back in what, 2008? Any other in car video, anyone? Man, he can fly.

    And, whatever happened to the car? Is it still around anywhere?
    Robert

  9. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoover View Post
    You also wanted to tune your own car, install your kit over the weekend and possibly start/drive it, but only had the stock ecu map. I provided you a starter map (I think a loaner ecu as well) so that you could at minimum start the engine and drive it.
    We did discuss the fact that I had been tuning my own cars since the 90s. You gave me a lengthy explanation of how wacky and difficult to tune the MBE is (which is true!). We also discussed how a $10,000 kit should include a solid baseline tune. I brought my ECU to the shop for Jim to flash.

    For my 10 grand I expected a map that would run the car well. Period, end of story. I completely understand that one needs to spend a day on the rollers to achieve max safe power, and that production tolerances mean that a mail order tune probably won't be optimum. But I did not expect the car to stall every time I started it, nor did I expect the idle AFR to be 16:1 (c'mon, man, that's *miles* off!), and I was disappointed that you did not think fixing the deficiencies was included in the 10 grand turbo kit purchase price.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoover View Post
    Since we are the only ones that have actual racing data, that information is priceless and helps us improve daily. Inspecting the engines after that amount of time, tells us that we are on the right track.
    What does this have to do with the tune that came with my turbo kit? You didn't want to include a good tune because you knew I could dissect it? All you had to do was to tell me not to publish any information about it and I would have honored your request.

    Jeff
    -------------------------
    Jeff
    Noble parts for sale, see my Noble website: http://Noblecars.org

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by NobleM400 View Post
    We did discuss the fact that I had been tuning my own cars since the 90s. You gave me a lengthy explanation of how wacky and difficult to tune the MBE is (which is true!). We also discussed how a $10,000 kit should include a solid baseline tune. I brought my ECU to the shop for Jim to flash.

    For my 10 grand I expected a map that would run the car well. Period, end of story. I completely understand that one needs to spend a day on the rollers to achieve max safe power, and that production tolerances mean that a mail order tune probably won't be optimum. But I did not expect the car to stall every time I started it, nor did I expect the idle AFR to be 16:1 (c'mon, man, that's *miles* off!), and I was disappointed that you did not think fixing the deficiencies was included in the 10 grand turbo kit purchase price.

    What does this have to do with the tune that came with my turbo kit? You didn't want to include a good tune because you knew I could dissect it? All you had to do was to tell me not to publish any information about it and I would have honored your request.

    Jeff
    jeff, you are still welcome to use our dyno and I apologize if there's any type of communication failure on my part!

    we discounted the turbo kit because you could do things yourself. they are more than 10k and have always been.

    we had a customer that was doing a similar set up at that time, but ended up very different. you were offered to come in and work on the tune and we could transfer it over to your car, but still your engine would need some dyno time as well. all engines are different.

    our start up maps don't run as much initial fuel for a reason. when motors have little miles on them, you don't want heavy fuel pouring in on idle. We have to make adjustments all the time once the motor is started. AER back in the day, didn't pre-start their motors, so no one knows if the engines need more break-in time. idle/start up tuning is always LAST, not first.

    racing is important, it tells us the range of these engines and changes that need to be made, if and when a person should decide to track.
    Last edited by Hoover; 02-11-2012 at 11:55 AM.
    Factory Noble Software
    Noble M400 SCCA GT-1 Podium 2014

    www.Noble-Speed.com

    TurboHoses R&D
    Noble, Rossion and Lotus Performance
    http://www.turbohoses.com/Nobleperformance.htm

    Hooverc@TurboHoses.com
    925-455-1066
    Livermore CA.

    www.OriginSportsCars.com
    HVR & Origin N

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